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The Stealthy F-15 Battles The F-35

April 16, 2009: Boeing recently unveiled its newest 5th generation fighter the, F-15SE (Silent Eagle) which could well be a F-35 killer on the export market. The aircraft is essentially an F-15 with improved radar and avionics and a modified airframe to add stealth (resistance to radar detection). Conformal fuel tanks mounted underneath the airframe create two internal weapons bays. Each bay has two stores hard points; an upper swing out weapons rack and a lower trapeze with separate doors. The trapeze can carry a 1000 pound JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition) or an AIM-120 AMRAAM (Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile). The upper swing out weapon rack can be fitted with a rail to mount an AMRAAM or smaller AIM-9X Sidewinder missile. It also can be fitted with a 500 pound bomb. All four hard points can carry two SDBs (Small Diameter Bomb) each.

Apart from the internal weapons bays, the major retrofit to the airframe is the two tail fins canted 15 degrees outwards to eliminate nose ballast and the trim, reducing the radar cross section towards the sides. The aircraft’s frontal radar signature has been further softened out by using radar absorbent coatings to the airframe, particularly to the leading edges. Boeing claims the end-result is an aircraft that can match the frontal-aspect stealth profile of any fifth generation fighter in configurations cleared by the US government for export release. The US government has very strict regulations on export of aircraft with low radar signature. For an example the USAF’s primary air superiority stealth fighter the Lockheed Martin F-22 is not cleared for export. Boeing acknowledges the F-15SE’s stealth improvements do not help against ground-based radar systems, which are critical for waging offensive strikes against opponents armed with surface to air missile systems. Lowering the F-15SE’s thermal signature - a critical stealthy feature for the F-22 - is also not part of Boeing’s plans. But it says the F-15SE is aimed at international customers who are more likely to use the aircraft for defensive, counter-air operations where the aircraft would be harder to detect by airborne radar of an enemy aircraft.

Another key feature of the F-15SE is its electronic warfare system. Boeing has selected the BAE Systems digital electronic warfare system (DEWS), which includes a digital radar warning receiver, digital jamming transmitter, integrated countermeasures dispenser and an interference cancellation system. This enables the aircraft to continue to jam enemy radars even as its own radar and radar warning receiver (RWR) continues to function. The main sensor for the aircraft will be the Raytheon APG-63(V)3 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.

Boeing’s estimated cost for a new aircraft is $100 million,  including spares and training. However, if the existing F-15E customers want to retrofit their aircraft to the F-15SE standard, the company would undertake same at a much lesser cost. Boeing plans to offer the aircraft initially to Israel, Japan, Singapore, Saudi Arabia and South Korea, with all being current F-15 customers.

The unique feature of all the improvements is that the aircraft can be quickly reconfigurable to its former non stealthy standard. With its new sensors and the Electronic Warfare suit plus it’s 14 ton payload makes it a front runner in the non stealth multi-role fighter market at any case. 

Although Boeing doesn’t admit the implications of the arrival of the F-15SE on the export market for the F-35, the shrinking defense budgets of many counties who were potential customers for the F-35 may be attracted to the new aircraft. Already two customers on the F-35 prospect list (Israel and Singapore) are on the list of potential customers for the F-15 SE, and a third, Japan is due to make a request for proposals for its F-X fighter program. The F-35 still being under the specification and over-budget adds more weight in to the Boeing’s prospects. Independent analysts also see potential markets for the SE in Taiwan and in other Middle East countries such as UAE and Kuwait. However according to Boeing, USAF the largest F-15 operator, still is not an “official” sales target. -- Chaminda Perera

 

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gf0012-aust       4/16/2009 6:14:00 AM
Converting existing F-15's to F-15SE's as an option?

So chopping the skegs off your old F-15 and installing canted verticals is going to be cost effective? 

I think there might be a vast difference between and upgraded F15 and the original SE.  Structural changes to the rear skegs being one obvious limitation. 

which seems to indicate 2 extra variants 

the real SE
and a stock F-15 fitted with the weapons bay conformals and re-harnessing etc but still stuck with the original tail.

 
 
Quote    Reply

nyetneinnon    Joint Super Eagle   4/16/2009 6:29:11 AM
What could AUS, JAP, SK and Boeing jointly whip up given a common objective?  Yeah, I stuck AUS in there as a mere hypothetical... a major faux pas, accepted.  Truth is, there's still substantial growth left in the Eagle, amazingly, so why quit now!
 
Call this one the F-15SUE 'Super', with a few new joints, minus the tails, up a few 1,000s lb/thrust and a slightly buffed out nose for good measure - just to name a few..  Cheers-
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

LB    Yawn   4/16/2009 9:56:27 AM
It's not a 5th generation fighter.  Lowering the RCS does not let you call it stealthy but merely LO.  Is there any fuel left in the CRTs after adding the internal bays?  How is range affected?
 
The F-15 is not fly by wire.  It has control rods and wires with significant maintenance penalties so the new digital system and new tails seem rather difficult to put in an existing airframe so upgrading current F-15s seems far less attractive.  Not to mention the entire project is a conceptual prototype that needs someone to pay for it.
 
Significantly the LO aspects are all aimed at air to air, RCS is said to remain the same vs ground based systems, so it's all rather limited.  The use of existing CRTs for internal weapons carriage is also rather limiting.  It would be interesting to see what could be done to the airframe if starting fresh but it's still a 1960s design.  
 
If anything lowering the RCS a bit, adding a digital flight control system, and lowering weight by changing the tails eliminating the nose ballast would appear to make it a better Strike Eagle.  It's not clear exactly how much advantage is gained in carrying the same internal load as an F-35 in a less stealthy airframe and at what comparative range?
 
 
 

 
Quote    Reply

JFKY    Ok, I'm not anythng close to an expert...   4/16/2009 9:58:08 AM
nor do I play one on TV, BUT:
1) F-15 upgrade...so my F-15 is nearing the end of it's and it makes SENSE to recycle the old airframe into this new version?  How do I save any money this way?  Alternatively, is this really cost -effective?  I mean IF planes didn't have air frame life times, mayhap this would make sense, but as they do it looks like you just keep an increasingly expensive plane to maintain, but don't get all the F-35/F-22 features....Again this really can make sense cost-wise?
2) New F-15SE...looks like it suffers from the Rafale-Syndrome...pretty pricey for what you get...it's not an F-35 or an F-22, but it sure costs a lot.....
 
Quote    Reply

LB    Yawn   4/16/2009 10:21:11 AM
It's not a 5th generation fighter.  Lowering the RCS does not let you call it stealthy but merely LO.  Is there any fuel left in the CRTs after adding the internal bays?  How is range affected?
 
The F-15 is not fly by wire.  It has control rods and wires with significant maintenance penalties so the new digital system and new tails seem rather difficult to put in an existing airframe so upgrading current F-15s seems far less attractive.  Not to mention the entire project is a conceptual prototype that needs someone to pay for it.
 
Significantly the LO aspects are all aimed at air to air, RCS is said to remain the same vs ground based systems, so it's all rather limited.  The use of existing CRTs for internal weapons carriage is also rather limiting.  It would be interesting to see what could be done to the airframe if starting fresh but it's still a 1960s design.  
 
If anything lowering the RCS a bit, adding a digital flight control system, and lowering weight by changing the tails eliminating the nose ballast would appear to make it a better Strike Eagle.  It's not clear exactly how much advantage is gained in carrying the same internal load as an F-35 in a less stealthy airframe and at what comparative range?
 
 
 

 
Quote    Reply

arodrig6       4/16/2009 11:17:01 AM

nor do I play one on TV, BUT:

1) F-15 upgrade...so my F-15 is nearing the end of it's and it makes SENSE to recycle the old airframe into this new version?  How do I save any money this way?  Alternatively, is this really cost -effective?  I mean IF planes didn't have air frame life times, mayhap this would make sense, but as they do it looks like you just keep an increasingly expensive plane to maintain, but don't get all the F-35/F-22 features....Again this really can make sense cost-wise?

2) New F-15SE...looks like it suffers from the Rafale-Syndrome...pretty pricey for what you get...it's not an F-35 or an F-22, but it sure costs a lot.....


Some thoughts:
 
- Many F-15s are relatively new and may not be nearing end-of-life - F-15I's were built at late as 1998, F-15Ks started delivery in 2005, F-15S 1998, F-15SGs are still being built. If the SE variant replaces significant parts of the airframe, this could extend life even more. 
- There may be additional cost savings by sharing parts and training with existing F-15 fleets
- It might be easier to get the F-15SE compared to an F-35 or F-22 which have greater export restrictions. 
- The Fly-away cost for an f-35 is $83M, if the F-15SE is $100M, but that includes training and spares, so the comparable unit price might be closer to $50M - a pretty decent savings. This could be even less if the upgrade package is cheaper.
 
So, the F-15SE may not give you a price/performance as good as the F-35, but it may be more available and more appealing for nations which already have F-15s. 
 
Thoughts?
 
Quote    Reply

JFKY    IF...   4/16/2009 11:26:27 AM
you've got low-mileage F-15's and IF the F-15SE can be built at the price suggested, then I guess it makes sense...someone mentioned that the current F-15 may not be amenable to tail replacement AND the RCS reduction is for a2a...so there would be some question, STILL of cost-benefit analysis.
 
Quote    Reply

SpudmanWP       4/16/2009 11:45:59 AM
Lets start a pool...
 
How soon will Kopp claim the F-15SE as the solution for Australia instead of the F-35?
 
How soon will he claim the solution will be to buy up older USAF F-15s and have "a certain company" in Australia convert them to F-15SE spec?
 
Quote    Reply

SlowMan       4/16/2009 11:57:15 AM
F-15 Silent Eagle is DOA because it doesn't meet mission profile of any of proposed clients, who are looking at F-22. Japanese, Austrialian, and  Korean airforces need full stealth against enemy fighters and ground radars, but F-15SE offers no reduced detection against ground radars, only against air-born radar.
 
In other word, F-15SE marketing strategy assumes that it would be playing a defensive interceptor role against intruding enemy fighters within the operator's own airspace,  whereas prospective clients are looking at full stealth against enemy AWACs and guided missile destroyers of each other.

Boeing's first sales target of F-15SE is Korea's F-X contract, but Korean Airforce officials who were briefed on F-15SE in Febrary before Beoing's official unveiling were cold against the Boeing proposal. Basically, Korean government officials are weighing between F-35 and Eurofighter Typhoon Trenche 3(on the condition that EADS joins in Korea's own 5th gen full stealth long range twin-engine strike fighter program as a consultant and technical partner as a condition of purchase), with F-15SE basically ruled out. The same reality applies to Japanese and Australian bid too.
 
What Boeing must come up with is a fully designed F-15 that offers full stealth, not something like Silent Eagle.
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Design the bird from the engine out.   4/16/2009 12:51:40 PM

F-15 Silent Eagle is DOA because it doesn't meet mission profile of any of proposed clients, who are looking at F-22. Japanese, Austrialian, and  Korean airforces need full stealth against enemy fighters and ground radars, but F-15SE offers no reduced detection against ground radars, only against air-born radar.


 

In other word, F-15SE marketing strategy assumes that it would be playing a defensive interceptor role against intruding enemy fighters within the operator's own airspace,  whereas prospective clients are looking at full stealth against enemy AWACs and guided missile destroyers of each other.




Boeing's first sales target of F-15SE is Korea's F-X contract, but Korean Airforce officials who were briefed on F-15SE in Febrary before Beoing's official unveiling were cold against the Boeing proposal. Basically, Korean government officials are weighing between F-35 and Eurofighter Typhoon Trenche 3(on the condition that EADS joins in Korea's own 5th gen full stealth long range twin-engine strike fighter program as a consultant and technical partner as a condition of purchase), with F-15SE basically ruled out. The same reality applies to Japanese and Australian bid too.


 


What Boeing must come up with is a fully designed F-15 that offers full stealth, not something like Silent Eagle.

Installing  supercruise engines and better avionics in new builds makes the most sense.

Otherwise you are debating minimal cosmetics changes to a BEAGLE.
 
Herald
 
Quote    Reply

SlowMan       4/16/2009 1:05:41 PM


Installing  supercruise engines and better avionics in new builds makes the most sense.
 
Otherwise you are debating minimal cosmetics changes to a BEAGLE.

Herald
Current F-15K/SG can supercruise on a clean profile, thus F-15SE will supercruise. This fact is not well-known, but it is done without extra drag of external fuel-tanks.

The problem with F-15SE is that it doesn't meet the stealth requiremet against ground-based radar. Both Japanese and Koreans position Aegis destroyers against each other's coastline and Chinese too are experimenting with Type-52C destroyers, so flying in one's own airspace without anti-ground stealth is a kiss of death because of a close proximity of Aegis and Aegis-like ships in East Asian waters. 
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345       4/16/2009 2:18:20 PM





Installing  supercruise engines and better avionics in new builds makes the most sense.

 

Otherwise you are debating minimal cosmetics changes to a BEAGLE.



Herald




Current F-15K/SG can supercruise on a clean profile, thus F-15SE will supercruise. This fact is not well-known, but it is done without extra drag of external fuel-tanks.





The problem with F-15SE is that it doesn't meet the stealth requiremet against ground-based radar. Both Japanese and Koreans position Aegis destroyers against each other's coastline and Chinese too are experimenting with Type-52C destroyers, so flying in one's own airspace without anti-ground stealth is a kiss of death because of a close proximity of Aegis and Aegis-like ships in East Asian waters. 


A better engine will extend the supercruise from minutes into an hour even under "clean" conditions . That improves coverage as a function of time. It also improves the first step in the aircraft A2A missile combo as it gives the launch platform a better sustained shove versus going to reheat to lob the weapon.
 
Herald
 
 
Quote    Reply

FJV       4/16/2009 2:29:45 PM
In my opinion you're better off buying Eurofighters, than these F15's.
 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

arodrig6       4/16/2009 3:07:05 PM

you've got low-mileage F-15's and IF the F-15SE can be built at the price suggested, then I guess it makes sense...someone mentioned that the current F-15 may not be amenable to tail replacement AND the RCS reduction is for a2a...so there would be some question, STILL of cost-benefit analysis.

Agreed. It would take a lot of IFs to make it feasible.
 
Quote    Reply

SpudmanWP       4/16/2009 3:28:42 PM

>>In my opinion you're better off buying Eurofighters, than these F15's.
 
Better to buy F-35 than anything save the F-22.

 

 

 

 
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